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[quote name='Punk Rock Geek' timestamp='1325281268' post='95562'] Because some people are getting offended by what I'm saying, and like you said, I don't want this to be a fight! <img src='http://anti-flag.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/realhappy.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':)' /> My definition is similar, but I find empowerment to be too broad of a concept in itself. There are plenty of women who find all forms of pornography to be empowering, so would that make all pornography feminist? You have made a distinction here between regular porn, and feminist porn, which tells me that you too have criteria for feminism beyond it being empowering to some women. So I ask you your own question in return. That there is a market for women does not make the market itself feminist. It just makes it a typical market, which will attempt to extract profits from as many people as possible. That women demanded better pay-rates and forced their entry into the workforce was an act of feminism. That the market responded by selling to women was just rudimentary microeconomics. Similarly, I would say that fighting for better conditions for women within pornography is an act of feminism, but that the pornography itself is not. For me, feminism is a struggle and not a product. [/quote]

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Punk Rock Geek

Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:41 PM

Kaitlyn, on 30 December 2011 - 05:23 AM, said:

why would you need to say that??? this is a conversation, not a fight.

maybe our definitions of feminism differ. for me feminism means empowerment of women and genderqueer people. what's yours?

Because some people are getting offended by what I'm saying, and like you said, I don't want this to be a fight!

My definition is similar, but I find empowerment to be too broad of a concept in itself. There are plenty of women who find all forms of pornograp...

Kaitlyn

Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:23 AM

Punk Rock Geek, on 29 December 2011 - 07:24 PM, said:

I am not attacking you.

why would you need to say that??? this is a conversation, not a fight.

maybe our definitions of feminism differ. for me feminism means empowerment of women and genderqueer people. what's yours?

Punk Rock Geek

Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:24 PM

Kaitlyn, on 29 December 2011 - 07:26 AM, said:

i won't comment on the capitalistic theories because i know too little about it but feminist porn is still pretty much underground anyway.

I agree with Sammy: in feminist porn, the actors and actresses aren't treated like meat. it promotes fun sex and doesn't only consist of the sacrosanct trilogy: blowjob, vaginal and anal penetration (of the girl, that goes without saying).

feminist porn is also more diverse than traditional porn: the actors and actresses represent a broader spectrum of shapes and and gender expression. i find it very empowering to know that i'm also allowed to have sex even if i'm not skinny,pr...

Punk Rock Geek

Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:03 PM

EatShitAndCry, on 29 December 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

1. Maybe it's not empowerment that seeks market validation, maybe it's "I need money so I'm gonna fuck someone and sell the recording, but let's try to make it look like something I'd want to watch". Also, I find that a lot of feminist porn fucks heteronormative beauty standards and does their own shit.

2. I use Adblock because I think ads are annoying. You boycott porn because you find it offensive (I assume. You may be boycotting it because you don't find it sexy, which is fine). I don't actually have a problem with you not giving them money, I have a problem with the reason you'r...

Punk Rock Geek

Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:00 PM

EatShitAndCry, on 29 December 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

Really? In my mind feminist porn directors aren't "fighting the system", they're making shit that people (women, especially) will want to jerk it to.

Then why are we arguing? I already agree that "feminist porn" isn't about fighting patriarchy. The example I used was to show the ridiculousness of this idealism.

But then if we can agree on that much, let's call a spade a spade. Sammy is using the word feminist loosely, as to mean "made-for-women". The word she probably means to use is feminine. It's that difference betwe...

Sammysaint

Posted 29 December 2011 - 03:12 PM

Go Floyd

Floyd

Posted 29 December 2011 - 01:11 PM

I am just going to leave this here for everyone's consideration, PRG said this to me, I think it could be reversed and applied to this situation by replacing "Anarchist" with "Feminist"

Punk Rock Geek, on 09 October 2011 - 07:58 PM, said:

Floyd, serious question, but have you read any anarchist texts before? You insult anarchists for not being anarchist enough all the time, but you haven't really said anything before that would lead me to believe you are one yourself.

I have more stuff I could say here, but I can never get my thoughts down on computers.

EatShitAndCry

Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:50 AM

Punk Rock Geek, on 28 December 2011 - 04:53 PM, said:

A couple of things:

1. I absolutely recognize that I "whore" myself out for money. I also recognize that a feminist can work inside of the porn industry, just as a feminist can work in web design. But there's a difference between feminist work, and a feminist who works. I'm a feminist because of my views of patriarchy--NOT because of my the specifics of my job. The problem I have with labeling an entire sub-industry as feminist is that it suggests that capitalism and female (or male) liberation are compatible. Empowerment is to give power or authority...

EatShitAndCry

Posted 29 December 2011 - 08:43 AM

Punk Rock Geek, on 29 December 2011 - 03:53 AM, said:

Most wage-labor is "willful". That's a neutral condition for the most part. Whether or not it is degrading is dependent upon other factors.

Personally I think that nearly all wage-labor is degrading. I just think its bs to rule out a few forms of it and focus on those.

Quote

You misunderstood, though I'll admit that I did not have time to give a proper explanation. I said that it is unlikely that there is porn that is explicitly not intended for the male market. That is, the most femin...

Kaitlyn

Posted 29 December 2011 - 07:26 AM

Punk Rock Geek, on 25 December 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

how can porn be feminist when the primary market it is trying to reach (or please) is men? Furthermore, what kind of empowerment uses the capitalist market to seek validation?

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