152 replies to this topic

[affirmedatheist]

EatShitAndCry, on 19 April 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Teachers are the problem, children are the solution.

It's not quite that simple. Teachers are necessary, otherwise we'd quite possibly never learn anything. Or at least not much of the sort of thing that's learned at school (and maths, english and science - and HISTORY, which I wish I'd taken in upper high school - and such are important). What's wrong is a system that teaches solely what to think, and not HOW to think. That and the hierarchical arrangement (although the latter may be necessary for a productive learning environment for a select few). Good education needs to teach both (what, as in what we've discovered thus far; how to think so that future generations can take our understanding and break it to smithereens, all the while supporting their stance with evidence).

I actually didn't rebel against my teachers (then again, I had good teachers) except once (which was basically fuck PE); I didn't see the point - they're just the cogs at the front line of the machine, and a decent number of teachers are frustrated with the system themselves, but feel powerless.

More on topic, a couple of years ago I came to the decision I could no longer honestly sing the national anthem or honor a flag. It suddenly seemed so hollow and empty. I mean, a flag is a symbol, as is a national anthem. Honouring a symbol? How does that make any sense? Further, I saw that such actions can be equated with those of the mindless, the kind that give strength to tyranny. I decided back then I wouldn't be part of such a process, and haven't sung the anthem since. Indeed, I don't stand for the anthem anymore when I'm at an event where it's played, and haven't thankfully experienced any trouble (it helps being in a country where people give such a small fuck about the anthem that half of them don't even remember the words!).

There isn't a pledge of allegiance in use for anything except at naturalisation ceremonies; thank goodness I didn't have to go through that bullshit.

Edited by affirmedatheist, 18 May 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[pax]

affirmedatheist, on 18 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

It's not quite that simple. Teachers are necessary, otherwise we'd quite possibly never learn anything. Or at least not much of the sort of thing that's learned at school (and maths, english and science - and HISTORY, which I wish I'd taken in upper high school - and such are important). What's wrong is a system that teaches solely what to think, and not HOW to think. That and the hierarchical arrangement (although the latter may be necessary for a productive learning environment for a select few). Good education needs to teach both (what, as in what we've discovered thus far; how to think so that future generations can take our understanding and break it to smithereens, all the while supporting their stance with evidence).

i can only speak of austria, but according to the curriculum teachers here are supposed to teach how to think. our final exams are supposed to include critical thinking and questioning stuff. however, as our school system is not in the best state (let's put it in that way...), many of those aims are not realized. starting with next year there will also be a standardized school leaving exam for high schools and i'm highly critical of it. of course, i see that there might be some positive aspects, however, the negative ones prevail in my opinion. anyway, the hierarchical arrangement in school is not really necessary. i don't know if you have every heard about montessori or waldorf teaching? those are learner centered school models. it would be really interesting to work in one of those schools for some time. nevertheless, i hope that the general school system will improve at some point in time.

denmark also seems to have a quite good educational policy (as do the scandinavian countries in general). we have been talking about Hellerup School a lot at my university, here are two links if you're interested. it's quite different from traditional teaching:

[affirmedatheist]

I have heard of the Montessori schools. I don't know how they work but I have heard of them. I should clarify what I was saying; I do consider education something of an art; there is definitely a performance aspect (communicating with children isn't something everyone can do easily, and some people who are excellent academically are terrible communicators). That along with the ability to break down often complex knowledge into an understandable manner is difficult. I have the latter to some extent but not so much of the former (my non-written communication is clear and concise but nerves have robbed me from speaking out or getting a message out several times).

I don't know if there's some sort of selection criteria for that school (watched the videos) but what fascinates me is that the kids are so clearly engaged. The skeptic in me says it could possibly be staged for the video, and being a skeptic by nature, I don't rule that possibility out - it wouldn't be the first time organisations did such things. All that said, I'm not an educator, have precisely zero university education and don't claim to know much about the art of education, but it certainly looks like an interesting way to do things.

Edited by affirmedatheist, 26 May 2012 - 07:02 AM.

[pax]

affirmedatheist, on 26 May 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I have heard of the Montessori schools. I don't know how they work but I have heard of them. I should clarify what I was saying; I do consider education something of an art; there is definitely a performance aspect (communicating with children isn't something everyone can do easily, and some people who are excellent academically are terrible communicators). That along with the ability to break down often complex knowledge into an understandable manner is difficult. I have the latter to some extent but not so much of the former (my non-written communication is clear and concise but nerves have robbed me from speaking out or getting a message out several times).

I don't know if there's some sort of selection criteria for that school (watched the videos) but what fascinates me is that the kids are so clearly engaged. The skeptic in me says it could possibly be staged for the video, and being a skeptic by nature, I don't rule that possibility out - it wouldn't be the first time organisations did such things. All that said, I'm not an educator, have precisely zero university education and don't claim to know much about the art of education, but it certainly looks like an interesting way to do things.

montessori basically based her theory on the thought that kids generally want to learn, but as soon as they enter school this wish vanishes due to different factors. montessori schools want to keep that wish alive and kids shall learn what they want to learn. to put it short. of course there are many other factors

i can understand why you're critical about the video. i don't really think that it's staged, 'cause i guess i'd be too lazy to stage something like that but even if it is staged, i still think that the principle is inspiring. i would love to visit some different schools in different countries.

[Floyd]

who remembers these from when you were kids:
"I pledge allegiance to the fart of the united states of americat and to the repooplic of which it stinks one nation under goat with lizardey and juices for none"

[affirmedatheist]

pax, on 26 May 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

montessori basically based her theory on the thought that kids generally want to learn, but as soon as they enter school this wish vanishes due to different factors. montessori schools want to keep that wish alive and kids shall learn what they want to learn. to put it short. of course there are many other factors

i can understand why you're critical about the video. i don't really think that it's staged, 'cause i guess i'd be too lazy to stage something like that but even if it is staged, i still think that the principle is inspiring. i would love to visit some different schools in different countries.

Oh, I agree that it does seem to be a good way to do things. I wouldn't be surprised if it does work.

It'll be interesting to see how these kids go as they grow up, that's for sure.

[AndBurn]

Last year i was in two of the classes during it where you didn't have to say anything, so i didn't most of the time(it really became a joke doing it in one of the classes), but this year the class I'm in just about everyone says it and they all have to turn to my direction and it's awkward as anything watching them as i sit.__.

[Skaz]

The closest thing to the pledge of allegience my school had was prayers/hymns as it was a catholic school. I went through the motions of standing and pretending to sing/pray but it never occurred to me back then to outright refuse to do it. I wish now that I had.

[schreursa]

We have the national anthem played every morning during our first hour followed by the days announcements. We do this so that students coming in late do not miss instructional time, just the anthem and announcements. I am glad they do this, it gives me some extra time to take attendance and the kids that come in late don't miss anything. I respect the country I live in, but I also respect the countries of all of my students. This is why the American flag is not the only one in the room, and students have been more than happy to bring flags in from their home countries.

[EatShitAndCry]

How much ethnic diversity is there in Wyoming, exactly?

[schreursa]

affirmedatheist, on 18 May 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

It's not quite that simple. Teachers are necessary, otherwise we'd quite possibly never learn anything. Or at least not much of the sort of thing that's learned at school (and maths, english and science - and HISTORY, which I wish I'd taken in upper high school - and such are important). What's wrong is a system that teaches solely what to think, and not HOW to think. That and the hierarchical arrangement (although the latter may be necessary for a productive learning environment for a select few). Good education needs to teach both (what, as in what we've discovered thus far; how to think so that future generations can take our understanding and break it to smithereens, all the while supporting their stance with evidence).

I actually didn't rebel against my teachers (then again, I had good teachers) except once (which was basically fuck PE); I didn't see the point - they're just the cogs at the front line of the machine, and a decent number of teachers are frustrated with the system themselves, but feel powerless.

More on topic, a couple of years ago I came to the decision I could no longer honestly sing the national anthem or honor a flag. It suddenly seemed so hollow and empty. I mean, a flag is a symbol, as is a national anthem. Honouring a symbol? How does that make any sense? Further, I saw that such actions can be equated with those of the mindless, the kind that give strength to tyranny. I decided back then I wouldn't be part of such a process, and haven't sung the anthem since. Indeed, I don't stand for the anthem anymore when I'm at an event where it's played, and haven't thankfully experienced any trouble (it helps being in a country where people give such a small fuck about the anthem that half of them don't even remember the words!).

There isn't a pledge of allegiance in use for anything except at naturalisation ceremonies; thank goodness I didn't have to go through that bullshit.

[schreursa]

EatShitAndCry, on 03 October 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

How much ethnic diversity is there in Wyoming, exactly?

Not a ton.. but my classes represent kids from 5 different nations. Pretty good for a consistently red state.

[All Dead]

schreursa, on 03 October 2012 - 07:14 PM, said:

This is why the American flag is not the only one in the room, and students have been more than happy to bring flags in from their home countries.

Now, do you provide the lighters?