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Replying To Greetings from China - The People United

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Black Cat

Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:08 PM

View PostSteve, on 28 September 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Anything can be a commodity. What makes a thing a commodity is the way people relate to it. If something is being created to be exchanged, and therefore has value, even if that exchange is merely barter, then it is a commodity.

This is precisely the problem with the Left's obsession with democracy. The very reason why workers council failed in the past is because they focused on the form of management of the economy, rather than understanding the economy itself is what needs to be abolished. In fact, I would go so far as to say that workers councils are the forms capital takes in its last straw attempts to keep itself around....

Renan

Posted 29 September 2011 - 09:07 AM

View PostSteve, on 28 September 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

If something is being created to be exchanged, and therefore has value, even if that exchange is merely barter, then it is a commodity.

But the point of producing a commodity isn´t mainly because of the profit involved in the exchange?
Only through profit that capital can be produced in the exchange, right?

Punk Rock Geek

Posted 29 September 2011 - 12:25 AM

View PostSteve, on 28 September 2011 - 09:36 PM, said:

Anything can be a commodity. What makes a thing a commodity is the way people relate to it. If something is being created to be exchanged, and therefore has value, even if that exchange is merely barter, then it is a commodity.

This is precisely the problem with the Left's obsession with democracy. The very reason why workers council failed in the past is because they focused on the form of management of the economy, rather than understanding the economy itself is what needs to be abolished. In fact, I would go so far as to say that workers councils are the forms capital takes in its last straw attempts to keep itself around.
T...

Steve

Posted 28 September 2011 - 09:36 PM

View PostBlack Cat, on 22 September 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

Which goods exactly count as goods from commodity production in your opinion?
Anything can be a commodity. What makes a thing a commodity is the way people relate to it. If something is being created to be exchanged, and therefore has value, even if that exchange is merely barter, then it is a commodity.

This is precisely the problem with the Left's obsession with democracy. The very reason why workers council failed in the past is because they focused on the form of management of the economy, rather than understanding the economy itself is what needs to be abolished. In fact, I would go so far as to say that workers counci...

Renan

Posted 23 September 2011 - 07:56 AM

View PostBlack Cat, on 22 September 2011 - 02:57 PM, said:

Which goods exactly count as goods from commodity production in your opinion?

Anything that can be sold for a profit can be a commodity. It doesn´t matter what is sold, but how much capital it can produce.

From your computer to even abstract things (without a physical representation) as ideologies, can be transformed into commodities. We sell ourselves like any other commodity.

Black Cat

Posted 22 September 2011 - 02:57 PM

Which goods exactly count as goods from commodity production in your opinion?

Renan

Posted 22 September 2011 - 02:30 PM

View PostBlack Cat, on 22 September 2011 - 12:49 PM, said:

I understand that job specialization is inevitable to produce goods. But why does this necessarily has to lead to different social classes, who are considered to have each a different value for society?

This is not just about job specialization, something that is only related with the improvement of the production.
The reason for the production of goods is the production and accumulation of capital, something that can only be done through the extraction of surplus value from someone else's work, from someone who doesn´t own the means of production. So, the class that has the ownership of the means of production can benefit...

Black Cat

Posted 22 September 2011 - 12:49 PM

View PostRenan, on 21 September 2011 - 06:32 PM, said:

I think he meant that stratification, ie, the separation of individuals into social classes and, consequently, exploitation and domination, is inevitable in a system of commodity production.
I understand that job specialization is inevitable to produce goods. But why does this necessarily has to lead to different social classes, who are considered to have each a different value for society? I don't think, failed attempts in the past, where hierarchies soon were back after a worker's council was established or similar cannot prove that it always has to be this way.

Punk Rock Geek

Posted 22 September 2011 - 11:17 AM

View PostRenan, on 22 September 2011 - 08:31 AM, said:

If people are voting it´s democratic. In democracy the majority chooses and dictate it to the contrary minority, doesnt´matter if this majotity was condicioned by a continuous series of events and "tools" of social control developed historically.
I have to leave right away, but by your own definition, China would be considered a democracy.  I'm saying that's incorrect and that true democracy can only exist when power is horizontal.

Renan

Posted 22 September 2011 - 08:31 AM

View PostPunk Rock Geek, on 21 September 2011 - 08:50 PM, said:

Private property is what allows wage-slavery (and thus hierarchy) to exist.  The examples you listed are not examples of horizontal decision making power if they take place within the confines of a capitalist, or state-capitalist (that is, the state owns everything) system, because in both of these cases, the people are subservient to those with the most property.

Hierarchies already existed before capitalist social relations, but I got your point.
The examples I'm giving are exactly what horizontal management structures (with your "direct" or "pure" democracy) with a collective ownership of t...

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